Episode 165: The Case For the 4-Day Workweek

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Ian: Hey everyone, you are listening to “Coffee with Gringos.” I'm Ian Kennedy.

Paige: And I'm Paige Sutherland.

Ian: And today we're going to be talking about the four-day workweek. This is an idea that has been talked about for many years, but I think it's come more into the focus recently with all these changes we're experiencing due to work conditions changing with COVID. During this time of the pandemic, we've seen many people go from working in the office every day to working remotely in their house or somewhere else where it's more convenient for them and people have really seen the benefits of this and it's led them to ask other questions like how can we improve working conditions in other ways? So, Paige and I are going to be talking about this developing idea today and talk about our own opinions on it. So, as usual, listeners, go ahead and check out that audio guide and transcript online at www.dynamic english.cl. Paige, working conditions have changed a lot in the past couple of hundred years. Even just one hundred years ago, people were working six days a week, sometimes seven days a week, children were working in factories. We saw these changes happen sort of within the last hundred years to see that now we have this standard five-day workweek. So, we've seen these changes, but what do you think about this idea of changing the workweek from five days to four days?

Paige: I mean, obviously, I love it. I'm definitely passionate about my job. I love journalism and the career that I pursued but at the same time, it's work. Work is work, and it's nice to have time to do other things and in the five-day workweek—which is allegedly 40 hours—which always ends up being much more, you really don't have much time to do other things. And if you do, you're generally pretty burnt out or tired. And so, I think having a shorter workweek for me would help mentally and I think I would be more productive, honestly. I think if I was able to do things I love outside of work more often, I would come to work more energized and be more excited to get that work done, as opposed to just the grind of just getting Monday to Friday.

Ian: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I can totally agree. I feel like in this world that we live in, we only get those two days of vacation for most people. So, your weekend, you get Saturday and Sunday, but let's be honest, one of those two days is typically spent grocery shopping or doing other things that are on your “to-do” list that you just don't have time to do during the week when you have a full-time job and a family and who knows what else. And so, I think you can almost count it as maybe just one day or even less of resting if you’re lucky. So, I think for a lot of people, they're just saying, look, of course, it’s important to work but should we work our lives away? And should things stay stagnant in terms of working conditions not changing over time? So, I think people are starting to see we don't have to have this cookie-cutter schedule of five days per week, eight hours in the office. Not everyone works at peak capacity this way or peak productivity this way and I think that's something we're seeing with people working remotely during this time as well. But that just brings up the idea, can we work different hours? Work those forty hours within the four days and you have that carrot at the end of the stick knowing that you have Friday, Saturday, Sunday, completely to yourself.

Paige: Yeah, and I think at the end of the day, if we did just do a thirty-two-hour work-week, but got paid for forty and had that extra time off, I do think we'd be more productive because in a forty-hour workweek that ends up being probably closer to fifty A lot of people have a lot of dead time because they're not as productive because they're tired, they're on their third cup of coffee or they're just feeling pretty burnt out. So, I think the fear is oh if we do thirty-two it will only be thirty-two hours of work but I think it will be higher quality work would be my guess, honestly, and employees would feel more valued. It's like you're going to pay me for forty I'm going to do thirty-two hours; I'm going to make those thirty-two hours really count if I'm going to get paid that extra. So, I think there is a fear that of course less productivity if people work less but I honestly think it would probably balance out.

Ian: I agree. You make some good points too. Employees are a company's greatest asset so, it makes sense to keep your most important asset feeling important and feeling valued. What better way than to feel valued than to say look you we trust you so much, we know that you're responsible enough to handle this kind of a change or this kind of a work schedule and so, we're going to allow you to do that. And people are going to feel, like I said, very valued and for that reason, they're going to be more motivated to work. They're going to be more productive and like you said, they’re not going to be so burnt out. Having that extra day is going to make them feel more refreshed. They'll be able to spend more time with their family, have an extra day to travel, have an extra day for a hobby, whatever it might be. And studies show that productivity goes up when people are happier that way. This kind of idea that you have to be in a brick-and-mortar office five days a week, eight hours, some of those hours, you're not even productive. You're just trying to look busy on your computer or you're talking with your coworkers or trying to kill time because you’re in the feeling that you have the duty that you have to be in the office. You almost feel guilty in a way and so, I don't think this is beneficial for workers and I think we can see a lot of tradeoffs, or we could see a lot of tradeoffs if we tried out this different model.

Paige: Hey, Ian. Did you know besides the podcast, Dynamic English offers one-on-one classes with native teachers from all over the world?

Ian: Really? But isn't it just a bunch of grammar lessons?

Paige: Nope, it's completely discussion-based and focuses on topics the student is interested in.

Ian: That's amazing. But what if I'm not living in Chile?

Paige: No problem. Dynamic does online classes so you can be living anywhere.

Ian: Great, but I'm a little intimidated to take the class alone. Can I join with a friend?

Paige: Of course. Dynamic offers group classes of up to four. Plus, for the next month, Coffee with Gringos listeners get 10% off individual or group classes. So go online to www.dynamicenglish.cl and mention that you are a listener and get your discount.

Ian: Well, I'm sold. Sign me up.

Paige: I noticed this when I lived abroad in Chile because we live in a very money-driven society in the US. Capitalism is the way of life and it's all about productivity and so, we've always been taught to work, work, work…nine to five, and when I lived abroad a lot of people didn't work nine to five. I mean, a lot of people took these huge two-hour lunches. They played paddle at lunch and did all these things and I was like, in the US this would never fly. You have to be in the office and you have to be glued to your computer from eight to five and it was nice to be in a different country and see that there are different ways and that the way we're doing isn't, the right way or there are many ways to get the work done. I think, yeah, we've all been there where it’s, four o'clock on a Friday and you're just sitting there for an hour when if you're really not working and you already did the work for the week, why can't you just go home? But we have to show face and be in the office for that forty hours, which is silly. But I think also what was interesting about the shift in the labor market is because of technology we really are never off. If my boss sends me an email, my email is on my phone. I probably check it. On the weekends, I check it after hours, before hours. And so, I think that work never gets logged. I mean, how many emails have we sent or messages that we've sent that are not in our forty-hour workweek that we don't count or don't get paid for? So, it's tough. It's really tough to not work with today's technology.

Ian: That's a good point to bring up too. I think that it's hard to disconnect and especially we've seen that with having to take work home or take work remotely with that the pandemic. It has presented its own challenges and I actually think that's one of the biggest challenges to the idea of accepting this four-day workweek is there's already this very implemented culture of the five days in the office for a lot of people. And I think another thing, at least you see in the US, is people a lot of times try to go above and beyond. They try to look like workaholics, they try to look like they care more perhaps than their other coworkers who might get to the office when they're supposed to and leave right on time. Maybe they don't stay late. And I think there will be those outliers—those people who still want to go above and beyond. They might try to push working five days still. While it's not easy to do, I think in the end, it could be beneficial or would be beneficial. So, like maybe how one hundred years ago how working six to seven days a week, children working every day, maybe people then were saying, “I don't know if people are going to be able to conform to this five-day workweek.” But I think that it's something that we should try. It's been so long since there have been real concrete changes to the working environment and look like we said earlier, the idea is to work to live, not live to work. So, life is much more than just us and our work so, I think some changes can be made in this way and I think we ought to try it out. I personally am a big fan of it and I will certainly volunteer to be a part of that kind of work schedule if it's offered to me. What about you? Same?

Paige: Yeah, absolutely and I think now is a good time to really explore it in the sense that it's sad a pandemic forced us to try this remote working. I used to have conversations with bosses many, many years ago about, hey, I want to work from home. I'm writing this story. I'm more productive at home. You go to the office and everyone's chatting with you, you get sucked in all these meetings where you're really not productive and then your day is gone and you didn't write a single sentence. And that was hard. People were like, well, if you're at home, you're not going to work and it's like, we've discovered two years now we've all worked from home and we're, if anything, I work more. I'm very productive at home because it's quiet, I'm not distracted, I live alone. So, I think that pushed the boundaries a little. That people can work and be responsible to get the work done, even if their boss isn’t in the cubicle next to him. That could show the same with a four-day workweek that we don't need forty hours to get the work done. We can do it in thirty-two and will be more productive and happier and healthier and spend more time with our family.

Ian: Absolutely. And I actually have a real-world case of this. A friend of mine here in Chile works for Cornershop, which is a very successful unicorn startup that I'm sure a lot of people have heard about. This fourth quarter of this year, they have only been working four days a week. They've been trying out this model. According to my friend, he's very happy with this trial of trying this out and still seems as productive. That's what he says. So, there's a point in case there is a company that's already trying it out. And I think a silver lining of this pandemic, like we said, is we've seen some of these working changes with working remotely, sort of a mixed-hybrid style and I think this is another sort of thing that's going to come into the mix. There are going to be companies like Cornershop trying this out and it's going to be another draw for people, just like benefits that companies offer, salaries that companies offer. This is going to be one of those things that people say, oh, this company, they have the four-day work schedule. That's fantastic. That's something I want in my life and it's going to draw in those workers. So, I think we have some interesting developments coming and, I think, like we said before if we were having this conversation before the pandemic, I don't think I'd be so optimistic about it becoming reality, but, like we've said, anything's possible now after these last two years. So interesting thing to consider.

Paige: Yeah, I think the worry would be companies would push to do a thirty-two-hour week and pay you for thirty-two hours and that's where that's not good for anyone. Unfortunately, the cost of living is just too expensive that you need that forty-hour salary in order to make ends meet especially if you have a family or if you live in the city and so I think if paying for forty hours and only having thirty-two hours of work, I think I would push if there was a compromise would be four days a week, but ten-hour days or something like that so that you do get more time to yourself because realistically, we all kind of work past five. And so, working those extra two hours for a couple more days but having a whole day off I think would be worth it, if that's the compromise.

Ian: I think that would have to be the way it starts. I don't think you can reduce the hours really at this point. The idea would be four days, ten hours a week. So just two hours extra each day for me I think it would be worth it. Like you said, most people work after hours anyway so go ahead and just be productive and do that and so start there with the forty hours and then if things go according to plan, if things stay productive, then maybe we can look at actually reducing those hours during the week. Another interesting topic that maybe we can talk about in a future podcast, reducing the hours altogether. So, a lot of things to consider here as we move forward with these working conditions. So, whether you're working—hopefully not six days a week—whether you're working five days a week, or four days a week, whatever it might be, we're all trying to get to that point where we can work a little less or at least work more productively within a short amount of time and hopefully try to enjoy life a little bit more while we can. Stop and smell the roses as we say in English. So, listeners once again, thank you for listening and check out that audio guide and transcript online at www.dynamicenglish.cl. As always, thanks for listening.

Paige: We'll see you next time.

Paige: Coffee with Gringos was brought to you by Dynamic English where you can learn English simply by using it. If you're interested in taking classes or just want to learn more, go to our website at dynamicenglish.cl. Thanks for listening.

Key Vocabulary, Phrases & Slang:

 1.     burnt out (adjective): in a state of physical or mental collapse caused by overwork or stress.  

a.     Many people are feeling burnt out due to long working hours.

2.     stagnant (adjective): showing no change or activity; dull and sluggish.

a.     Wage conditions for workers have been stagnant for years.

3.     cookie-cutter (adjective): mass-produced; unoriginal.

a.     The cookie-cutter corporate office was the same as before.

4.     carrot at the end of the stick (idiom): the reward at the end of something that is being pursued.

a.     The carrot at the end of the stick could be an extra day for the weekend.

5.     brick-and-mortar (adjective): a business that operates conventionally rather than over the internet.

a.     Many people are trading the brick-and-mortar office for remote work.

6.     to fly (verb, slang): to be something that is acceptable.

a.     The old working conditions will not fly with us now.

7.     outlier (noun): a person or thing that is different from all other members of a group.

a.     There will still be outliers who prefer to work more hours than necessary.

8.     unicorn startup (noun): a privately held startup company with a value of over $1 billion.

a.     It has become a successful unicorn startup in the continent.

9.     silver lining (idiom): a positive aspect from a negative situation.

a.     The silver lining of the pandemic has been a rise in remote work.

10.  to make ends meet (idiom): to earn enough income to pay for life’s necessities.

a.     It is getting more and more difficult for workers to make ends meet.

11.  to stop and smell the roses (idiom): to live in the present and appreciate the present moments of life.

a.     It is important to stop and smell the roses so that your life doesn’t pass you by.