Episode 164: New Zealand's Controversial Smoking Ban

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Ian: Hey, everyone, you are listening to “Coffee with Gringos.” I'm Ian Kennedy.

Paige: And I'm Paige Sutherland.

Ian: Today we're going to be talking about an interesting and controversial proposal that the country of New Zealand has actually come up with in order to end tobacco smoking starting with the youth in their country. So, it would be essentially a lifetime ban for those who are too young at the moment to be smoking and I think this is something that we haven't really seen before and really asks a lot of questions about health, modernization, personal rights, etc. So, Paige and I are going to touch upon that today about what's going on there and our own personal thoughts on the matter. So, as usual, listeners, go online and check out that audio guide and transcript at www.dynamicenglish.cl. So, basically, to give our listeners a nutshell idea of what's going on right now is New Zealand's government believes it’s coming up with a pretty good plan to end tobacco smoking in their country. And so, they have proposed a new law to pass next year which would make the minimum age to buy cigarettes rise year after year. . So that means in theory, at least sixty-five years after this law takes effect, shoppers could buy cigarettes but only if they prove they were eighty years old. So, they're basically phasing out the legality of the age in which you can buy tobacco products and their idea is that they would like to have the goal of having fewer than five percent of their citizens smoking by 2025. So, it's interesting that they're coming about this as we talk about a lot of different things that come around in our lives that are vices. We live in a world where you can buy a lot of different things at any anytime you want and it's legal so it's interesting that this country is looking at this as a way to really decrease their smoking rates. And they point to some facts that around with today's figures about eleven percent of adults are smoking, but with the indigenous Maori people that live there, it's much higher—it's at twenty-two percent. So, there's clearly a problem here with the smoking rate and they want to reduce that but of course, with this, you have good sides and you have bad sides. So, let's first start with the good side. So, Paige, what do you think is a positive about New Zealand bringing about this idea of getting a smoke-free culture?

Paige: Yeah, I mean, I think their intentions are really good. Obviously, I think cigarettes kill millions of people every year through lung cancer and all these kinds of other issues and you get secondhand smoke, where people even die from just living in the same house as someone who's a smoker. They show you all these terrible ads from smoking, that it basically erodes your throat and some people smoke so much and it affects them that they can't speak anymore. They have to be on a ventilator and all these things so smoking really does kill. So, I applaud them for trying to address that. Obviously saving lives and getting less people to smoke is a good thing, but I think this is a little radical. What are your thoughts on the good parts of this law?

Ian: No, I agree. I mean, I think ideally, in a perfect world, people wouldn't smoke cigarettes, they wouldn't abuse tobacco, we would have cleaner air, cleaner lungs, just a cleaner environment in general. But as a realist, I know this is a crazy thing to think could be possible. And again, I think we've waded more into the area, like you said, it's a bit radical. So, let's go ahead and jump, we've talked about the pros of this so let's move into the negatives we could see in this. So, for me, the first thing that I think is well, not only does it seem a little bit unrealistic, because if people want to find a way to do something, they can. I think we've seen this with a lot of different products that exist in the world and to think that you could completely phase this out or even tell people what they can and can't do with their own choices, I think is the big issue here. For me, I'm a big believer in personal freedom when it comes to risk and making decisions for yourself if you're responsible enough. So, again, I point back to all these different products that we have available to us that are socially acceptable or quote-unquote “legal”. So, if I wanted to, and you could as well, we could go down to the store, you could buy fifteen bottles of whiskey, legally, go home, drink as much as you want, and, of course, you would die. It's a huge risk, it's very dangerous, but people are entitled to that personal right. And it's a personal risk that you take and as long as you don't hurt other people, I feel like a responsible adult should be able to make their own choices about what they want to put in their own body, what's available to them and I don't think it should be on the government to say look, you can't have this product, especially something that has been societally very acceptable for many years like alcohol. There are certainly those drugs that have been very taboo and those are the ones that are just now becoming legal like, for example, marijuana or other drugs that are really always painted in this bad light. But cigarettes and alcohol, they fall into that acceptable, more or less, sort of vice. So again, I think that's something that it's so ingrained in the culture and the society. Good luck trying to get rid of that. I don't know what the cigarette culture is, like, intimately, in New Zealand, but I can imagine that people are not happy about this proposal overall. What do you think?

Paige: Yeah, I mean, I think all the research shows that putting a ban on a drug doesn't work. Like you said, when people want something, they're going to get it, and sadly, the way they're going to get it is worse for them. They're going to go to the black market, which means it's going to cost more money which a lot of people who probably will go to these levels to get it are probably lower incomes. You’re hurting a population that's already vulnerable, but making them pay maybe double for cigarettes and then you're also not going to know that people are going to start making it themselves and who knows what's going to go into those cigarettes? There could be more dangerous chemicals that people put in because it's cheaper to probably put fentanyl in your cigarette than to put actual good quality tobacco and regulate what's in it. And so, people are going to get cigarettes one way or another, and it's, I think, safer if it's regulated through the government.

Paige: Hey, Ian. Did you know besides the podcast, Dynamic English offers one-on-one classes with native teachers from all over the world?

Ian: Really? But isn't it just a bunch of grammar lessons?

Paige: Nope, it's completely discussion-based and focuses on topics the student is interested in.

Ian: That's amazing. But what if I'm not living in Chile?

Paige: No problem. Dynamic does online classes so you can be living anywhere.

Ian: Great, but I'm a little intimidated to take the class alone. Can I join with a friend?

Paige: Of course. Dynamic offers group classes of up to four. Plus, for the next month, Coffee with Gringos listeners get 10% off individual or group classes. So go online to www.dynamicenglish.cl and mention that you are a listener and get your discount.

Ian: Well, I'm sold. Sign me up.

Paige: It's interesting, like you said, that they're not putting a ban on vaping because vaping is a pretty new product where we don't know the long-term effects and it's been marketed as safer than cigarettes but we can't say that because we haven't met someone who's vaped more than ten years not even. So, we don't know how that person's lungs are going to be in forty years from now like we do with cigarettes and so, it's interesting that they're like, “We don't want our kids hooked on cigarettes, but vaping is okay.” Which, in my opinion, I would wager those forty years from now we're going to see that vaping is probably just as bad, if not worse, for people.

Ian: That's a good point to bring up. I know, it's interesting that this loophole is existing in the proposal. So basically, they're saying cigarettes—so actual tobacco cigarettes—but you will still be able to get nicotine in the form of these vapes. And, again, like you said, we just we can’t definitively say that they're safer than cigarettes right now so, it's this weird limbo of just not having that information or that data to go off of and, it's also negatively affecting in an economic sense, a lot of store owners, a lot of these people who use these products in order to make a living. It's just tough because I think that there are some different ways that this could be approached. I think in other countries, there have been good steps that have been taken, including in the US, to raise the legal age from buying tobacco from eighteen to twenty-one. I think twenty on, you're still technically developing, you're not fully developed adult, but I think it's it's a good step because eighteen is young. I mean, I remember in Missouri when I turned eighteen, it was like, okay, well, this is legal to us now. I didn't smoke but if I wanted to, I could. I still felt so young and I felt like just, alright, I can just walk in and buy cigarettes if I like and so I think by raising the age that can help. And there are actually studies that show this—sales decrease when they're raised and it's not seen as like this taboo or cool thing when you treat it in a different way and so, I think that's a better way of doing it and I think just overall education. You can't really force someone not to do something, but what you can do is you can educate them on the choices they have. So, I say starting at a young age, let kids know, look, you have the right to smoke, but you need to know what's going to happen if you consistently smoke. All these negative things can happen to you. That said, you still have that choice but I think through education people can again, have more self-autonomy and they can choose for themselves as opposed to big daddy government slapping our hands and saying you're not responsible enough to have this or you don't have the right to have this. I don't think that's the way about going about it. We need to give people the right, but make sure they're educated at the same time.

Paige: Yeah, I agree. I think education is key and I think I saw in the policy that there were a lot of states do at least in the US is they have what we call a “sin tax.” So, it's things that are, quote-unquote “bad” for you. They have a tax and so there's a cigarette tax, there's an alcohol tax, and so, what a lot of states do to try to get people not to buy it is they increase the cigarette tax so, the price of a pack of cigarettes becomes very expensive, which hurts people who are lower-income that are hooked at a young age and nicotine is very addictive. So, they crave it and need it and then they can't afford it and instead of buying food, maybe they buy cigarettes. So, we don't want to create that situation where vulnerable people are having to choose when they're addicted, but I think an outright ban was not the way to go either because people are just going to get it somewhere else which isn't as safe. But it is interesting to see a policy where many years from now a kid will be forty and won't be old enough to buy cigarettes.

Ian: Right, it's funny to think about a full-grown adult being turned down for cigarettes. So again, Yeah, exactly. Makes me feel young again. Right. Yeah. So, it's one of those things where it will be interesting to see if it goes into effect. I think in a lot of places, it really couldn't be done. I think maybe in a small populated place like New Zealand for a lot of things it's a good way of a trial to see how it works. So, we'll see what happens and while we've mostly been talking about the negative effects of this proposal, I do have to say I think it is nice to see a country making a health proposal during this time where of course we have the pandemic but we also have the pandemics just for overall health in the world—obesity rates, smoking rates, cardiovascular problems, diabetes, the list goes on and on and on and on. And so even though it's not the right approach, necessarily, I like the fact that it's actually being highlighted that we have an issue with this aspect of health and something needs to be done. So, like you said, their hearts are in the right place, but it's not the right way of going about it.

Paige: I don't think. No, definitely like you said, we love our liberties here in the US so, I think an outright ban would not go out here. So curious to see how it works in New Zealand but applaud them for being brave enough to try it. So, listeners as always, if you get lost, check out that guide at www.dynamicenglish.cl. And who knows, in twenty years, me and Ian might do a black-market cigarette store in New Zealand.

Ian: Who knows? Only time will tell but we will keep our business interests open.

Paige: Well, as always thanks for listening.

Ian: We'll see you next time.

Paige: Coffee with Gringos was brought to you by Dynamic English, where you can learn English simply by using it. If you're interested in taking classes or just want to learn more, go to our website at dynamicenglish.cl. Thanks for listening.

Key Vocabulary, Phrases & Slang:

 1.     to touch upon (phrasal verb): to briefly discuss something.

a.      Today we will touch upon a complicated topic.

2.     nutshell (noun): the shortened version of a story.

a.     In a nutshell, they have proposed new law.

3.     to erode (verb): to gradually wear away or destroy.

a.     Smoking can erode your throat and make it difficult to breathe.

4.     to applaud (verb): to show approval or support for a person or action.

a.     I applaud them for trying to make a healthier community.

5.     to wade into (phrasal verb): to intervene in a situation or become a part of it.

a.     They waded into the conversation regarding what can actually be done.

6.     entitled (adjective): deserving of privileges or special treatment.

a.     People are entitled to their own opinions.

7.     hooked (adjective): addicted.  

a.     It can be easy to get hooked on cigarettes.

8.     to wager (verb): to bet; to place money or value on something.

a.     I wager that there are many people who aren’t happy about the new law.

9.     loophole (noun): an ambiguity or inadequacy in the law.

a.     There is a loophole that allows for the buying of vapes.

10.  limbo (noun): an uncertain area of a decision or resolution.

a.     It feels like a state of limbo that is happening in the country.

11.  to crave (verb): to desperately desire or want something.

a.     Daily smokers often crave cigarettes and can’t stop smoking them.

12.  outright (adjective): altogether; completely.           

a.     It has been banned outright throughout the entire country.