Episode 126: Privacy...Do We Really Have Any?

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Paige: You are listening to “Coffee with Gringos.” I'm Paige Sutherland.

Ian: And I’m Ian Kennedy.

Paige: And today we are going to talk about an issue that has become more and more important today as we are all on the Internet and on social media, and our whole lives are essentially online. So, that is privacy. Whether it's something we hold dear or don't care about. So, again listeners if you get lost, check out that audio guide and transcript online. So, Ian—privacy. Are you a big privacy nut or just don't care?

Ian: I think I like to say that I care—and I do care—but I think a lot of us are pretty hypocritical in that sense. Because, while we say that we really care about our privacy, we don't want the government or third parties meddling in what we're talking about, what we're doing, our data. We use so many sources and so many devices today that it's pretty much impossible to be completely off the grid or to be completely private. So, of course, I use Google, I use Facebook, I use all these sites which, of course, you're giving up your privacy. But, I think, in general, when using these sources or using these platforms, I do care about privacy while using them. And I think this is becoming more and more important for users and customers is the idea of having more privacy because, like you mentioned, we live in this world of complete digitization. All of our information is online now. It can all be accessed. I mean, data is the most valuable asset that's out there and in the business world now. It’s marketing gold. And so, it's hard to be living in a world where we're always on the border between sharing all our information and keeping that privacy while using it. So, I'd say I'm definitely concerned about privacy and encryption and things like this but I also understand that it's unavoidable in some aspects. What about yourself?

Paige: I think I have a similar view to you. Being a reporter, I know that everything that I put online is out there and accessible and, unfortunately, probably out there forever. So, I never think that I have privacy if I post something on Instagram or Facebook. It's not private, it never will be. And so that is something that I take caution to. I don't post any incriminating photos, anything that I think would get me in trouble in my career, or anything like that and, like you said, data and everything is being stored and it's being sold and it's out there. And so, to have the expectation that you post something and you have all these privacy settings and it's really private is I think naïve. I don't have these ideas that people are watching me or anything, so it's something I don't really think too much about. I always don't put anything online that I think would ever hurt me ten years from now.

Ian: I think that's pretty prudent. If you don’t want people to know about it, do not put it on the internet. That's a good word of advice there. I think it's important to back up a little bit to explain how we've gotten to this point. So, a lot of this has come with the, like I mentioned earlier, with the introduction of digitization of technology of all our usage of social media, all these platforms. But also, we can go back to post 9/11. After the September 11 attacks in the United States in 2001, the government decided to put in power an agency technically it's called the National Security Agency (NSA) and the idea of this organization was to monitor people's communications. So, their emails, their messages, their phone calls, basically, to protect against any terrorism that could happen. Now what ended up happening was this law got passed without congressional approval and so, the government started basically spying on everyday citizens—their emails, the messages, or phone calls, even if they weren't considered a threat on a level of terrorism. And so, this technically was illegal, and it got leaked by Edward Snowden. So, Edward Snowden, he's the one that actually was the whistleblower, he leaked this to the public, and he still to this day—I want to say almost ten years later—is still living in Russia, as an exile. And so, that could be a whole episode in itself, actually, so we won't go down that rabbit hole. From these early days, the government reaching more and more to try to get into the privacy of everyday citizens. We see these companies like Google, Facebook, where people are getting more and more nervous about the way they're entering more and more into people's private lives and so it started back then and we just see each year it's developing more and more in different ways.

Paige: Absolutely. I think I would say in the US privacy is something that people take pride in. It depends on the state. I think a lot more conservatives, people on the right, really want their privacy and are adamantly opposed to any laws that will take any of that privacy away. But yeah, like you said, with social media, everything's out there. I think some of the scary things is I know everything's out there so I don't put anything that I would be nervous about someone knowing about me on the internet, but sometimes, say I book a flight to Florida and then all of a sudden, I get an ad for beachwear or tours by Palm Springs and you're like, how do you know that I booked a flight to Florida? Or for October, I decided that I wasn't going to drink. I was doing a Sobtober, and I didn't tell anyone about it. I didn't Google search anything and all of a sudden, I got all these ads for non-alcoholic beer. And I was like, how did it know? I don't know if they're listening to my conversations through my iPhone mic(rophone) or maybe they're even reading my text messages. I don't even know how, but I've never Googled non-alcoholic beer, I've never taken a month off of drinking. It was just odd how it targeted it was.  So, I think the ads really creeped me out and really show me how little privacy we have.

Ian: Yeah, it seems super intrusive. You may be talking about how you need a new pair of shoes and then on the right side of your computer screen you have shoes. Yeah, it makes you feel like you're being listened to or being watched. Some people even go to the point where the camera on the front-facing part of their computer, they'll cover it up with tape. I've even heard that Mark Zuckerberg has been seen doing this with his computer. He's a guy with inside knowledge so who knows? Maybe his actions are saying something but I don't go quite that far but it's definitely one of those things where people are nervous that they're being watched all the time. In this age of surveillance, in this age of what is private, what is encrypted, what is not encrypted, it leads us to a lot of different areas of what can we do without everyone knowing about it. That's the million-dollar question nowadays.

Paige: It's funny, when I went home recently, my dad has tape on his computer camera. My dad is like in his fifties, he's a blue-collar mechanic, and I'm like, “Dad, you don't even know how to work the video camera. How do you think is watching you?”

Ian: Just to be safe, just being safe.

Ian: Coffee with Gringos officially has over one hundred episodes and we are among the “Top Podcasts in Chile.” And that's thanks to you, but we're always working to grow our audience. So, make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Tik Tok, LinkedIn, and even Snapchat. But most importantly—rate, review and share us with all of your friends, family, and coworkers. And if you want to take your English education to the next level, sign up for private or group classes with native English-speaking teachers at dynamicenglish.cl.

Paige: And I think in the US, like you said, that Edward Snowden case was definitely very pivotal. Another case, many years ago, a terrorist attack in California also raised a lot of privacy issues. Tell us a little bit about that, Ian.

Ian: Yeah, so in 2015 in San Bernardino, California, there was a terrorist attack and two of the shooters had used iPhone 5s to have conversations to basically plan the terrorist attack they were going to carry out. And so, following the attack and all the investigations, the FBI, they came to Apple to say look, we need you guys to unlock these iPhones that the terrorists were using so that we can decipher their messages, we can read their communications, basically, so we can get to the bottom of what happened in all this. But Apple is actually a company that, they take their privacy very seriously, both for themselves and for their customers. So, what they said basically to the government, the FBI, is they said, sorry, our policies say that we cannot unlock encrypted messages between our customers. So, basically, sorry you're on your own. We're not going to do it, we're not going to help you with this investigation, we're not going to open up the phone so you can read the messages. As you can imagine, the US government didn't take that too lightly. They didn't really appreciate that answer. And, this sparked a really big debate of even in situations as terrible as a terrorist attack, who has the right to share this information? And from Apple’s point of view, they don't have the right to do that. That's the right of the customers, it's the right of the clients, and so the US government, they don't have a problem usually with intruding on people's information so they thought otherwise. And, it's interesting because in surveys for US citizens, how they thought about the situation and about Apple’s stance, they actually reported that over fifty percent of people found that Apple was in the right and they thought. It was about half and half; it was very close. But it was interesting to see that there were many people almost saying Apple’s got a point. Privacy is important. Even if we don't like what happened, we don't have the right to dig into people's information. So ever since then, we've had this debate back and forth of who gets access to encrypted information? Does the government? Does the regular person? Does the company? It's really interesting.

Paige: I'm shocked. Yeah, fifty-fifty. I mean, it is one of those questions that just has a lot of layers. It's not an easy answer. I think my take on it would be the same as searches that you have to get a warrant. They have to go to a judge and the case needs to be vetted and has to be legal and then authorized by a federal judge that says this is a proper search and seizure. And, maybe if Apple is really concerned about them knowing how to unlock it, that an Apple employee does it. And so, it's like every time the Apple employee has to do it so that the government can't just do it in any case. I think that would be my solution because I think this is a terrorism attack. You do want to make sure that there aren't more. You're preventing stuff. But I do agree, I think there needs to be a lot of legal steps. You can't just have the government opening phones whenever they want to.

Ian: And I think that's more the real issue, maybe not even so much this particular case, but the whole idea of okay, if Apple says yes to this one, then they're opening up a Pandora's box to the future. So, it's a way to justify. Well, you opened it for this case, why can't you do it again? Now, it's a way to justify for each case and so I think Apple’s worried, if we say yes, this one time, then we're going to feel obligated to say yes to these other opportunities or these other instances and that's not a road that they want to go down as a company.

Paige: Yeah, definitely.  I can see that point. It’s a tough call. Give an inch and they take a mile, so you don't want to let the government open this phone, and then that leads to everyone's phone being opened in the future. So, it's tough, you do want to give law enforcement the tools they need to prevent terrible crimes from happening but there need to be boundaries.

Ian: Sure, we have got to have safeguards moving forward. And it's strange because we don't have a playbook for any of this. We're living in this age of digitization like we mentioned, and with each year we have more and more developments in which, with more developments, we have more complications and, there's no like I said, there's no playbook for the past. We've never had this before so, with these new developments come new problems and new arguments, new complications. And so, of course, this isn't going to be the last that we hear about this, it’s going to continue to be a problem of user rights, carrier rights, privacy rights encryption, you know, the list goes on and on.

Paige: Absolutely, I mean I think you're seeing a lot of this play out in Congress. What are these social media platforms doing with our data? I mean really, we don't know. We assume it's being shared. I think that's the assumption.

Ian: We'll have to be careful moving forward with it and, again, just be careful what you share. It's important when you share online at least that you can control even if you can't control some of the policies of the platforms that we use.

Paige: As my parents always told me growing up—nothing's free. So, if you're using a platform and you're not paying for it, it's because you're giving them all this data. So just remember that when you're posting things and putting private information out there. But, anyway, listeners if you get lost, check out that audio guide and transcript online. As always, thanks for listening.

Ian: We'll see you next time.

Paige: “Coffee with Gringos” was brought to you by Dynamic English, where you can learn English simply by using it. If you’re interested in taking classes or just want to learn more, go to our website at dynamicenglish.cl. Thanks for listening.

 Key Vocabulary, Phrases & Slang:

 1.     hold dear (idiom): to care about greatly.

a.     Privacy is something that many people hold dear to them.  

2.     to meddle (verb): to interfere or involve oneself in something without permission.

a.     The government is always meddling with citizens and their privacy.

3.     off the grid (idiom): not using or depending on public utilities; completely private.

a.     In today’s world it’s nearly impossible to be off the grid.

4.     encryption (noun): the process of converting information and data into protected, private code to prevent unauthorized access.

a.     Many companies today are taking encryption seriously, especially Apple.

5.     incriminating (adjective): making someone appear guilty of a crime or illegal activity.

a.     Never put incriminating information online if you don’t want to get in trouble.

6.     naïve (adjective): lacking experience or judgment.

a.     It is naïve to think that the government isn’t monitoring what we do.

7.     prudent (adjective): wise, smart, clever.

a.     It’s prudent to be aware of what you are sharing online with others.

8.     to spy (verb): to secretly observe and collect information on someone.

a.     The NSA has been spying on US citizens for years.

9.     to leak (verb): intentionally share or disclose confidential information to the public.

a.     The workers leaked the information about the program to the media.

10.  whistleblower (noun): a person who informs the public about a person or organization that is involved in illegal activity.

a.     Edward Snowden is the famous whistleblower who shared information about the NSA illegally spying on US citizens.

11.  exile (noun): a person who lives in a different country than their native country due to choice or by force.

a.     Edward Snowden has been living as an exile in Russia since 2013.

12.  to go down a rabbit hole (idiom): to spend a lot of time with something.

a.     Let’s change the subject so we don’t go down a rabbit hole with the last topic.  

13.  adamantly (adverb): firmly; strongly.

a.     He adamantly opposes the government’s decision to spy on the citizens.

14.  Sobtober (noun): a combination of the words “sober” and “October” to represent spending the entire month of October being sober, i.e., no drinking alcohol or doing drugs.

a.     My friends and I decided to do a Sobtober challenge this year to be healthier.

15.  to creep (someone) out (phrasal verb): to give someone an uncomfortable or unpleasant feeling.

a.     It always creeps me out to think that we are constantly being watched.

16.  intrusive (adjective): invasive, unwanted.

a.     Online advertisements can seem very intrusive.

17.  blue-collar (adjective): relating to manual work or workers, i.e., construction workers, plumbers, etc.

a.     He is a blue-collar man who enjoys working hard during the day.

18.  pivotal (adjective): central; vital; essential.

a.     The court made a pivotal decision to allow him to release the information.  

19.  to carry out (phrasal verb): to do; to perform.

a.     The terrorists planned to carry out the attack as soon as possible.

20.  to decipher (verb): to analyze and understand something.

a.     The police wanted to decipher the phone contents using Apple’s help.

21.  lightly (adverb): not seriously.

a.     The government did not accept Apple’s decision lightly.

22.  otherwise (adverb): differently.

a.     Apple didn’t want to help but the government thought otherwise.

23.  take (noun): opinion.

a.     My take is that the government needs to go through several steps to be able to get confidential information.

24.  warrant (noun): a legal document authorizing the police to make arrests or search for information and items.

a.     The police should have to get a warrant in order to observe people’s private information.

25.  vetted (adjective): carefully examined and investigated.

a.     The information needs to be vetted before it is able to be shared.

26.  Pandora’s box (noun): a process that causes many complicated problems.

a.     The issue of privacy has opened a Pandora’s box for the government and citizens.

27.  road to go down (idiom): to decide to do something in a particular way; to make a specific choice.

a.     Sharing private information is not a road that they want to go down as a company.

28.  safeguard (noun): a measure taken to protect someone or something.

a.     We need safeguards for privacy as we move forward towards the future.

29.  playbook (noun): a book containing strategies and information from the past.

a.     Since we don’t have a playbook on privacy, we need to be very careful.